Thanks Psmiths. Your essays and discussion is even better than the bookshelf itself. I appreciate the final bit pointing out that what we see and admire most in Greek and Roman "golden ages" is the momentary splendor before it all starts to crash in on itself. Ditto Victorian England. And Pax Americana?
Keep it up; every post is a wonderful invitation to think more deeply.
Never a disappointment, whether you are filing your world-historical literary romps jointly or separately. It is funny you dis on gangsta rap because that is the only rap I found darkly and compellingly poetic in my teen years and young adulthood. But it does make a great comparison to describe how Homer sounds to many people, all hot and bloody and swaggering braggadocio. Since being compelled to read The Iliad in 8th grade I have never been able to forget the treasure trove of stiffly beautiful lines that burned themselves into my brain. So much so, that in later years I would needlessly work them into scenarios or uses as disparate as pick-up basketball game insults and postcards. A first-year law professor is the only person I had ever met who seemed to have authentically grey eyes, so when I nicknamed her the "Grey-Eyed Goddess" (“of Death” because of her grade-killing Civil Procedure examinations) it spread. Anyway, thanks for the many insights from a book I will never read and provoking my trip down amnesia lane. I do look forward to you both sharing any thoughts you have on the civilization-wracking technology that is AI; as a teacher watching the traditional educational system dissolving around me, it often feels like living through one of those moments we thought we would only read about happening to other people in history. Like being present at one of the (several) falls of Rome or the Russian Revolution, "weeks where decades happen." Keep the good stuff coming!
My family has a tradition. The oldest son has his grandfather’s first and middle name, so it alternates Robert Charles, Charles Robert, and has done so for at least the last 150 years.
I’m on the west coast where trendy names are common and meet these kids and I know their grandfather wasn’t named “Caden”
On my mom’s side, her father was a legend, so much so that we still talk about him more then 50 years after his death.
If I have another son, I want to name him after that man, but my wife objects, “he was a bad man!”
But he was our bad man.
The value of coming from a family rooted in itself is immense, and often feels aristocratic and out of touch in a society that chases trends.
>I'd also be interested to see an archeological perspective on his next section, about the sacred hearth.
Archaeologists Anders Kaliff has written on the Nordic Bronze Age use of sacred fires and funerary rites, paralleling them with other indo-european traditions. Alas his book "Källan på botten av tidens brunn : indoeuropeiska rötter till fornnordisk religion" is only available in Swedish. https://www.uu.se/kontakt-och-organisation/personal?query=N99-326
Fascinating! I really know very little about anything in Scandinavia before the Vikings, but I imagine this is another thing that vanished after the religious changes that followed the 6th c. volcanic winter?
My impression is that the extent of the changes in Norse cult has been overstated. I found this book by Kaliff (in english and accesaible online!) that adresses the use of sacred fires in the viking age.
>Before I proceed with the interpretation of the mounds as places/instruments for fire sacrifice, there is good reason to look at some ofthe written evidence for pre-Christian cultic implements preserved from pre-Christian and early medieval times. In the direct written sources, the Eddie and skaldic poems dealing with ancient Scandinavian cult, there are three different terms for cultic sites: Old Norse vé, hörgr, and hof (Swedish vi, harg, and hov). Vé seems to be an old Germanic word for a holy place or sanctuary; it occurs in the Eddie poems as a name of the dwelling of the gods and in skaldic poems as a term for true cult sites. The terms hörgr and hof often occur together but originally have different meanings. Hof probably refers to both a cult site and a chieftain’s farm in Late Iron Age tradition, while hörgr seems to be a rock but can also be a structure of stone or wood. It has been suggested that hörgr could be interpreted as a sacrificial altar of stone, located in the open air, and that it was initially a natural place in the form of a rock or an assemblage of stones, but was later developed into an altar structure (Hultgård 1996, pp. 29 ff.; cf. Vikstrand 2001, 2004). In the Eddie poem Hyndluljód (10) there is an account of how Ottar Innsteinsson worshipped the goddess Freyja. This took place at a hörgr of stone over which the blood of the sacrificed animal was poured. Hyndluljód is preserved in a manuscript from the fourteenth century and is often dated to the twelfth century. According to the historian of religion Anders Hultgård, however, this dating rests on an insecure foundation, and the content of the poem at least shows that the poet lived in an environment where ancient Scandinavian cult was remembered. It could thus be a realistic sacrificial scene that is described: “One can interpret the statement that the stones became as shining as glass (at gleri orbit) in such a way that they became glazed through repeated sacrificial fires. Hyndluljód evidently testifies to specific votive customs. At or on the sacred stone structure, people lit fires either to cook the meat from the sacrificial animal for a ritual meal or possibly in order to transfer part of the sacrificed matter to the divine sphere as a kind of burnt offering” (Hultgård 1996, p. 32).
My amateur reading is that the interpretation of Hyndluljód is strong, many older translations put "at gleri orbit" as "glaced by fire".
This is related to Pinsoffs ideas about virtue signaling and status inversions—there is a paradox that it is low status to seek status. Religion and rituals are like agreed ways that people can show virtue without being accused of status seeking. But when people start to believe the system is corrupted they seek counter signals and a status inversion (like paganism-> Christianity) occurs.
Metaphysical: What are the fundamental rules of this world? What's the relationship between the gods and Fate? What is the purpose of the gangsta life?
Politically: Who has what type of power in the Iliad and why? What type of kingship do the the different kings and leaders have? Where does Agamemnon get his power?
Etc.
But also and perhaps more importantly Alice Oswald's poetic *Memorial* is a great way to understand the Iliad as akin to a Vietnam memorial. It's a tender homage to each of the random Polycrates and Caletors and so on who bite the dust.
Very, very few ancestors of the Roman elite of 450 AD would have been members of the Roman elite of 200 BC. As early as 100 AD, the emperors started to be from Spain, the Levant, or in one memorable instance even Carthage itself. They weren't descended from Scipio or Fabius, even in the "sacrificing to the same ancestor" sense that Fustel describes
You're underestimating the role of adoption. Roman statesmen adopted grown men all the time, and it is obvious that such a rigorously patrilineal society would grow a profusion of adoption workarounds. Two generations of all girls are not that uncommon.
And yes, adopting a grown-ass man required him to forsake his old family gods and take up his adoptive ones.
That's possible, as far as the ruling class goes. But I thought it was generally accepted that there had been a significant population replacement outside the elite, even before the Battle of Adrianople?
I really enjoyed the book and the review. I want to know more about how Greek religion evolved and was codified. Is there a book or books you could recommend? Thank you!
Thanks Psmiths. Your essays and discussion is even better than the bookshelf itself. I appreciate the final bit pointing out that what we see and admire most in Greek and Roman "golden ages" is the momentary splendor before it all starts to crash in on itself. Ditto Victorian England. And Pax Americana?
Keep it up; every post is a wonderful invitation to think more deeply.
This was a incredibly stimulating review and discussion, lots to chew on. Obviously need to check out the book. Thank you.
Never a disappointment, whether you are filing your world-historical literary romps jointly or separately. It is funny you dis on gangsta rap because that is the only rap I found darkly and compellingly poetic in my teen years and young adulthood. But it does make a great comparison to describe how Homer sounds to many people, all hot and bloody and swaggering braggadocio. Since being compelled to read The Iliad in 8th grade I have never been able to forget the treasure trove of stiffly beautiful lines that burned themselves into my brain. So much so, that in later years I would needlessly work them into scenarios or uses as disparate as pick-up basketball game insults and postcards. A first-year law professor is the only person I had ever met who seemed to have authentically grey eyes, so when I nicknamed her the "Grey-Eyed Goddess" (“of Death” because of her grade-killing Civil Procedure examinations) it spread. Anyway, thanks for the many insights from a book I will never read and provoking my trip down amnesia lane. I do look forward to you both sharing any thoughts you have on the civilization-wracking technology that is AI; as a teacher watching the traditional educational system dissolving around me, it often feels like living through one of those moments we thought we would only read about happening to other people in history. Like being present at one of the (several) falls of Rome or the Russian Revolution, "weeks where decades happen." Keep the good stuff coming!
This is the most criminally underread blog on the internet
My family has a tradition. The oldest son has his grandfather’s first and middle name, so it alternates Robert Charles, Charles Robert, and has done so for at least the last 150 years.
I’m on the west coast where trendy names are common and meet these kids and I know their grandfather wasn’t named “Caden”
On my mom’s side, her father was a legend, so much so that we still talk about him more then 50 years after his death.
If I have another son, I want to name him after that man, but my wife objects, “he was a bad man!”
But he was our bad man.
The value of coming from a family rooted in itself is immense, and often feels aristocratic and out of touch in a society that chases trends.
>I'd also be interested to see an archeological perspective on his next section, about the sacred hearth.
Archaeologists Anders Kaliff has written on the Nordic Bronze Age use of sacred fires and funerary rites, paralleling them with other indo-european traditions. Alas his book "Källan på botten av tidens brunn : indoeuropeiska rötter till fornnordisk religion" is only available in Swedish. https://www.uu.se/kontakt-och-organisation/personal?query=N99-326
Fascinating! I really know very little about anything in Scandinavia before the Vikings, but I imagine this is another thing that vanished after the religious changes that followed the 6th c. volcanic winter?
My impression is that the extent of the changes in Norse cult has been overstated. I found this book by Kaliff (in english and accesaible online!) that adresses the use of sacred fires in the viking age.
https://uu.diva-portal.org/smash/record.jsf?pid=diva2:210539
from page 112:
>Before I proceed with the interpretation of the mounds as places/instruments for fire sacrifice, there is good reason to look at some ofthe written evidence for pre-Christian cultic implements preserved from pre-Christian and early medieval times. In the direct written sources, the Eddie and skaldic poems dealing with ancient Scandinavian cult, there are three different terms for cultic sites: Old Norse vé, hörgr, and hof (Swedish vi, harg, and hov). Vé seems to be an old Germanic word for a holy place or sanctuary; it occurs in the Eddie poems as a name of the dwelling of the gods and in skaldic poems as a term for true cult sites. The terms hörgr and hof often occur together but originally have different meanings. Hof probably refers to both a cult site and a chieftain’s farm in Late Iron Age tradition, while hörgr seems to be a rock but can also be a structure of stone or wood. It has been suggested that hörgr could be interpreted as a sacrificial altar of stone, located in the open air, and that it was initially a natural place in the form of a rock or an assemblage of stones, but was later developed into an altar structure (Hultgård 1996, pp. 29 ff.; cf. Vikstrand 2001, 2004). In the Eddie poem Hyndluljód (10) there is an account of how Ottar Innsteinsson worshipped the goddess Freyja. This took place at a hörgr of stone over which the blood of the sacrificed animal was poured. Hyndluljód is preserved in a manuscript from the fourteenth century and is often dated to the twelfth century. According to the historian of religion Anders Hultgård, however, this dating rests on an insecure foundation, and the content of the poem at least shows that the poet lived in an environment where ancient Scandinavian cult was remembered. It could thus be a realistic sacrificial scene that is described: “One can interpret the statement that the stones became as shining as glass (at gleri orbit) in such a way that they became glazed through repeated sacrificial fires. Hyndluljód evidently testifies to specific votive customs. At or on the sacred stone structure, people lit fires either to cook the meat from the sacrificial animal for a ritual meal or possibly in order to transfer part of the sacrificed matter to the divine sphere as a kind of burnt offering” (Hultgård 1996, p. 32).
My amateur reading is that the interpretation of Hyndluljód is strong, many older translations put "at gleri orbit" as "glaced by fire".
Thank you! This is really interesting.
This is related to Pinsoffs ideas about virtue signaling and status inversions—there is a paradox that it is low status to seek status. Religion and rituals are like agreed ways that people can show virtue without being accused of status seeking. But when people start to believe the system is corrupted they seek counter signals and a status inversion (like paganism-> Christianity) occurs.
Concerning getting into the Iliad:
I find it fruitful to read the book thematically.
Metaphysical: What are the fundamental rules of this world? What's the relationship between the gods and Fate? What is the purpose of the gangsta life?
Politically: Who has what type of power in the Iliad and why? What type of kingship do the the different kings and leaders have? Where does Agamemnon get his power?
Etc.
But also and perhaps more importantly Alice Oswald's poetic *Memorial* is a great way to understand the Iliad as akin to a Vietnam memorial. It's a tender homage to each of the random Polycrates and Caletors and so on who bite the dust.
Purchased the book earlier today and by pure coincidence ended up coming across this review. Incredibly engaging discussion, so much fun to read.
Absolutely spectacular.
>The descendants of those heroes
Objection: assumes facts not in evidence.
Very, very few ancestors of the Roman elite of 450 AD would have been members of the Roman elite of 200 BC. As early as 100 AD, the emperors started to be from Spain, the Levant, or in one memorable instance even Carthage itself. They weren't descended from Scipio or Fabius, even in the "sacrificing to the same ancestor" sense that Fustel describes
You're underestimating the role of adoption. Roman statesmen adopted grown men all the time, and it is obvious that such a rigorously patrilineal society would grow a profusion of adoption workarounds. Two generations of all girls are not that uncommon.
And yes, adopting a grown-ass man required him to forsake his old family gods and take up his adoptive ones.
That's possible, as far as the ruling class goes. But I thought it was generally accepted that there had been a significant population replacement outside the elite, even before the Battle of Adrianople?
Guy's name is Numa? That's some hardcore nominative determinism
I really enjoyed the book and the review. I want to know more about how Greek religion evolved and was codified. Is there a book or books you could recommend? Thank you!
The classic last time I checked (some time ago) was Walter Burkert’s Greek Religion.