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Julia D.'s avatar

“You don’t even need to share the ‘no’ if you share enough of the ‘yes’” is a good hypothesis, but I'm not sure it's supported by the evidence you've provided here from the Amish.

Things that are not predictive of high community retention rates:

- Yes or no to mechanization

- Yes or no to farming and unified household work

- Yes or no to teenage liberties

- Yes or no to living near other settlements in the community

Things that are predictive of high community retention rates:

- No to self, yes to community: Gelassenheit

- No to individual conscience, conviction, and relationship with God

- No to homeschooling and family culture

- No to interacting with anyone who commits excommunicable offenses

- No to Openness (in the Big Five sense)

- Yes to their particular community regardless of whatever its Ordnung or member list might be at the moment

This seems like a better but still not comprehensive fit with Scott Alexander’s hypothesis about how costly signaling assists community cohesion: https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/12/17/the-toxoplasma-of-rage/

Here's another example of how costly signaling can maintain the boundaries of backscratchers clubs: https://www.astralcodexten.com/p/lifeboat-games-and-backscratchers

Also, it provides a surprising amount of support for the often-denied hypothesis that you can have a strong community that's directly and explicitly optimizing for having a strong community rather than as a side effect of some other shared goal (like religion maybe?).

If you are Haidt-pilled, you might recall, though, that costly signaling still seems to work better, somehow, within religious communities than secular ones:

“The anthropologist Richard Sosis…found one master variable: the number of costly sacrifices that each commune demanded from its members. It was things like giving up alcohol and tobacco, fasting for days at a time, conforming to a communal dress code or hairstyle, or cutting ties with outsiders. For religious communes, the effect was perfectly linear: the more sacrifice a commune demanded, the longer it lasted. But Sosis was surprised to discover that demands for sacrifice did not help secular communes.” https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/06/12/list-of-the-passages-i-highlighted-in-my-copy-of-jonathan-haidts-the-righteous-mind/

Benjamin's avatar

Good job fighting back against "teloi".

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