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Ivan Fyodorovich's avatar

Okay, I wanted more children and I am now vasectomized and stuck at two. What I noticed is different about "these days" is that the kind of discipline that my wife and I experienced, and that our parents experienced even more, is no longer an option. I was scared of my dad, my wife was scared of her dad. My children are not scared of me. I will never hit them, I will never punish them in ways that could scare or upset them too much. To be clear, it is good in ways not to be feared. My children cuddle up to me, they draw pictures and write "I love you daddy" and give them to me just because they feel like it. I get a lot more warmth and love from my children than my dad did. The problem though is that everything is a negotiation. They get dressed, the older one does her homework etc, but it requires a level of persuasion and nagging that makes handling more than two impractical. What stops me from "detaching" is that we wouldn't get to school on time and homework wouldn't happen and they would get to bed at 11pm.

The widespread availability of cheap plastic toys collides catastrophically with the lower discipline. I let my kids have an hour or two of unstructured play time this morning (it's a holiday here in Canada) and there are sticker pads covering our dining room floor. Part of why I'm always taking them places like Jane is talking about is because they are constantly making messes they don't clean up and if they are somewhere else our house stays clean.

My understanding is that the fall in fertility is almost across the board, even Mormons in Utah are having fewer kids, and I think it's because they are ultimately plugged into the same culture. The Menonites and Haredim are the only people isolated enough to resist the trend.

This website is a nice mixing board for Blue and Red tribe, John and Jane and Trads reading this, how do you manage? Is there a way of having large families without unpleasant (and in Blue tribe circles, basically illegal) discipline?

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Thomas Casey's avatar

Excellent discussion of a topic that has been on my mind for quite some time. Your timing is good because WSJ just posted a big report today on the failing attempts by Hungary and Norway to boost TFR: https://www.wsj.com/world/birthrate-children-fertility-europe-perks-family-04aa13a0?mod=hp_lead_pos7

Despite the apparent failure of those efforts, I'm more of an optimist for the reasons you discuss. I have a couple of other anecdotal observations. First, my impression is that while having a bunch of kids is seen as low status, having a bunch of GRANDKIDS is high status. Conscientious, aging boomers who had 2 kids all seem quite enthusiastic to tell you about unusually high numbers of grandkids. It signals a kind of success as to their own parenting skills and demonstrates that they have a real legacy. It's also my experience that having, say, 5 kids today is actually less odd than it was 20 years ago. In my city today, for example, there are a large number of overlapping partially "seceded" communities where large families have become quite common and their kids are being raised around all these other large families. Nothing like that existed here 20 years ago. The social support network is much bigger. Some of these families now have kids entering adulthood and the culture they have created seems far "stickier" than I would have anticipated. The world they are creating is genuinely more appealing than the alternatives. Repeat the cycle for 2 or 3 generations and the future might be a real surprise.

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